Starting and then having the capacity to scale a business in such an entrenched branded community can be very daunting. ForĀ Ryan Ringholz andĀ Jonathan Spier, that is coming into the shoe industry establishing the first lifestyle brand to start with kids through their company,Ā PLAE. In this interview, Ryan and Jonathan take us into their journey from when they first launched entirely online in 2013 to evolving with their wildly successful approach to adults in 2017. At the heart of their brand is the word “play” where they recognize freedom of thinking like a kid. They’re taking this unique concept into their model and processes, especially with the new world of digital engagement. Tune in to catch their scaling advice that is essential no matter what industry you are in.
Listen to the podcast here:
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I have a cool new company to bring to you. They’re not new. They’re five years old, but new to you maybe. They’re definitely new to me. I love it when I can find a brand that is doing something innovative. It’s notĀ justĀ that they have a cool product. They’ve made some cool features and addedĀ themĀ to it, but they’re reinventing the model for how things are sold or how things are designed or delivered. That’s a sign of a company that has some deep experience, knowledge and growth. We can learn so much from them. That’s the company I’m bringing you now.
The company is calledĀ PLAE. PLAE is the next-gen global lifestyle brand where fun meets function.Ā It’s designed for the imaginative and crafted for the creative. They create shoes with premium materials, biometric science and all the stuff that elite athletes get, but they have fresh insights and philosophy. They’re the first lifestyle brand to start with kids. They launched entirely online in 2013. PLAE has evolved taking their wildly successful approach to adults in 2017. We’re going to talk about how that happened. On the journey,Ā they started asking themselves and the world, do you still play? It’s a great universal conceptĀ that play is fundamental, but often we forget about that in the design, development and cutthroat world of product in retail especially.
PLAE believes that there’s an artificial line when it comes to play between adultsĀ andĀ kids,Ā and their goal is to erase that line and harness the power of play for everyone. It started by two founders, Ryan Ringholz and Jonathan Spier. Ryan is the Founder and Chief Designer. He’s an internationally recognized brand expertĀ andĀ designer. He was the lead designer at Puma. He launched theĀ billion-dollar Lifestyle Division. He went to Diesel and grewĀ theĀ footwear to over $300 million and UGG where he created the strategic plan that grew the business from $250 million to $1 billion in five years. He has launched his own men’s footwear line and consulted for dozensĀ of the world’s best brands.
Jonathan Spier is the CEO. He’s a fifteen-year startup veteran.Ā He wasĀ Cofounder and CEO ofĀ NetBase, a leading provider of social media marketing solutions to blue-chip customers like Coca-Cola, JD Power and SAP. He is an alumnus of HBS and prior to joining PLAE served at Altos Ventures where he mentored and advised numerous CEOs. They’ve got quite an interesting team. I’m glad to introduce you to them and hear how they’ve managed to scale in such a difficult and challenging industry. Tune in to what they have to say because their scaling advice is essential no matter what industry you’re in.Ā
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Ryan and Jonathan, thank you so much for joining me. How are you?Ā
We’re doing great. Thanks for having us.Ā
I’mĀ glad to be here.Ā
I am excited to talk about how difficult thisĀ might haveĀ beenĀ andĀ how many things you had to do to overcome suchĀ anĀ entrenched branded community.Ā You guys decided to go into kidsāĀ sneakers, kids’ shoes. That’s where you started in. You moved into adult shoes, which going from kids to adults is something already that most companies cannot accomplish.Ā TakingĀ on adult shoes in any category, especially in casual wear is almost crazy. What made you think that this is going to be worth doing easy?Ā WhatĀ got into you a fewĀ years ago?Ā
It’s funny,Ā my career and backgroundĀ haveĀ always been in the adult shoe side of it.Ā In a weird and maybe twisted crazy way, however you want to say it,Ā doing kids’ shoesĀ in the beginningĀ was the harder and scarier part for meĀ thanĀ this idea of taking onĀ adult becauseĀ I’ve done that many timesĀ throughout my career, the adult sideĀ so that feltĀ comfortable.Ā
The part that feels the most daunting is when you're doing something you haven't done before. Click To TweetWhat’sĀ scary to most everybody else,Ā thinking aboutĀ you’re going in againstĀ New Balance, Nike, all of these companies. You’re like,Ā “I’m good withĀ that.āĀ It doesn’t seem difficult.Ā That’s anĀ interesting perspective.Ā
IĀ think it is withĀ anything. When you’re doing something you haven’t done before, that is the part that feels the most daunting.Ā For me, I hadn’t designed kid’s shoes prior to our initial launch. It was always the vision to have this whole lifestyle brandĀ but starting with kidsĀ basedĀ around design thinking.Ā There’sĀ aĀ notion of kid thinking.Ā I always found that if you can get as close to thinking like a kid in terms of how you approach a problem, you approach it with the idea that thereĀ areĀ no boundaries. ThereĀ areĀ no limitsĀ and that everything is possible.Ā That was theĀ onus for launching the brand and around this idea.Ā If you’re going to create something that’s rooted in that notion of kid thinking, kid design,Ā it only makes sense that you’d start with kids.Ā Especially if you’re going to have a brandĀ that’s all about having fun, play, experiences and ideation, it was the natural path it felt for us in launching even though it feels completely counterintuitive on paper.Ā
Jonathan, what about you? WereĀ you scared? Were you like,Ā “I got this,Ā I’m not scared by this at all?“Ā
It’s funny youĀ saidĀ weĀ took on something challenging. WeĀ never thought it would be easy, but we were inspiredĀ byĀ what we were trying to do. ThereĀ areĀ so many brands out there thatĀ stood for fight, compete, win.Ā It seemed to us natural that they needed to be a lifestyle brand that stood for andĀ stands forĀ PLAE. There was skepticism when we started,Ā butĀ not aboutĀ where we were starting in terms of product category. A fewĀ years ago,Ā it was still a new idea to be selling productsĀ only online and to haveĀ what we now call next–gen brands or Instagram brands,Ā butĀ to beĀ rooted and committed to the new model of how you go directĀ toĀ consumer and reach the market. That was a new ideaĀ not long ago.Ā Was it scary? It was exciting because of what we wanted to build, whichĀ felt bigĀ and also because we had a chance to build somethingĀ in aĀ new way, which is this onlineĀ community and social media–driven,Ā online–driven model.Ā
I joke about it thatĀ there’s thatĀ saying in entertainment that you never want to act with kids and animals.Ā It’sĀ the same in design. It’s a flooded market, but all times the kids are very picky. They have their own mind and most adults don’t understand it.Ā Somewhere along the line that’s where it goes wrong. Some committee somewhereĀ andĀ some corporation decided something that kids would like and they went,Ā “No, that’s not going to be us.” Especially inĀ thisĀ generation where it’s harder and harder to advertise to them.Ā
When we were kids, we were all watching commercials, Sunday mornings, Saturday mornings, whatever it was. We were watching all those commercials and stuff was pushed in our faces. WeĀ were like,Ā “Yes, we want that. That looks exciting.“Ā Nowadays,Ā my kids are watchingĀ completely filteredĀ stuff on their iPads and their Kindles. They don’t get any ads at all unless they’re watchingĀ YouTube.Ā You have a marketing challenge. You’ve got to get to the parents and get to the kids.Ā
AĀ lot of what you’re saying is the essence of how the models changed because it used to be so much about push marketing. The designers go off into a lab, some basement someplace and they designĀ forĀ six or nine months. When the consumerĀ finally sees the product afterĀ teaser billboards, when it announcesĀ andĀ it’s coming in three months,Ā it’s all push.Ā In many ways what we’re doingĀ here atĀ PLAEĀ wouldn’t have been possibleĀ without these new tools toĀ fundamentally reverseĀ the model and to work with the community from theĀ beginningĀ because we’re not trying to do that.Ā We’re not trying to invent something,Ā push and hope they like it. We’re trying our best to build something with our audience, with our community and hope it’s something we’re building together. ThatĀ takes fundamentally a ton of the risk out of itĀ andĀ changes the process around completely.Ā
Let’s tell everyone about exactly what you’reĀ doing and what you’ve built withĀ PLAE.Ā Tell us a little bit about the model. How does it work? How are kids involved in the process and now adults?Ā
From a product standpoint, I would say that it’sĀ different than how I’ve ever worked in past life experiences.Ā ToĀ yourĀ earlier point about this notion of designing in a lab or designing inĀ a caveĀ locked away, one of the things that I learned throughoutĀ progressively through my careerĀ isĀ sometimes it takes a little bit of time to come toĀ these realizations. Obviously,Ā I speak from a design perspective, butĀ I imagine it’s true of many types of business enterprises, in general,Ā is that it’sĀ easy to come in with your own pre–conceived notions of envisioningĀ what you wantedĀ to do.Ā It’sĀ hard to listen to peopleĀ and to interpret and internalize a lot of what they’re saying, to accept it,Ā but then to be able to put your perspective on that and reintroduce it.Ā Ā

Scaling In Branded Communities: If you can get as close to thinking like a kid in terms of how you approach a problem, you approach it with the idea that there are no boundaries.
That’s the process that we go through withĀ PLAE.Ā It was unique from the beginning. We’re listening to what our communityĀ isĀ asking for from experiences,Ā use cases and environments.Ā We’re able to go and work with them to collaborate and create together new ideas and new conceptsĀ and we’re able to explain why.Ā That’s the other big part of it that gets lost in this whole process, in this back and forth and give and take. That can happen in this new world of digital engagement where we can create something and say this is why we did this.Ā AĀ lot of the products we have in the market now wouldn’t have seen the light of day in the old model.Ā
It’s likeĀ we have had to not only upend our marketing, our sales process, but we’ve now had to upend our design process asĀ well. That is anĀ interesting model.Ā Tell me a little bit about shoes. Let’s talk about the shoesĀ because they’re cool.Ā Let’s talk a little bit about that. Let’s talk about the design of them. What’s unique about them?Ā
TheĀ big thing isĀ we focus this notion. If you designĀ for an outlier for extreme use cases, you can oftentimes, if not always,Ā come up with aĀ better solution for everybody. That’s been our approach with design and product. It’s led to innovations, new ideas and approaches for the entire construction of the shoe, the way it functions is completely differentĀ than any shoes previously.Ā That goes to our inner space system where for adults, the soles are interchangeable and can be customized to fit every individual because no two feet are the same.Ā WeĀ could speak for hoursĀ on that.Ā
Is there someĀ 3D-printing involved here?Ā IĀ knew we were going to get to that at some point.Ā
TheĀ innerspaceĀ system,Ā depending on the model,Ā thereĀ areĀ two available insole heels. The shoes are constructed soĀ that you can wear them without any insole at all,Ā barefoot, which is a zero drop in for people who want to have thatĀ natural barefootĀ wear. ThisĀ became popular during theĀ BornĀ ToĀ RunĀ MovementĀ and it continues to some degree.Ā We have our base insole,Ā which gives you a five–millimeter lift.Ā WeĀ use open–cell cushioning from ECO-Ortholite andĀ PORON,Ā which are the best in the world.Ā You get this incredible rebound and cushioning but also support.Ā For people whoĀ want to have a little bit moreĀ of a lift and a littleĀ more arch, thereĀ areĀ the cushions thatĀ we call space foam that fits in. It locks in like a blockĀ under the heel.Ā That gives youĀ another tenĀ millimeters of lift. Itās fifteenĀ in total.Ā
I’m wishing I was wearing your shoes because the floor was so hard in this building I was giving a talk in. It was concrete floorsĀ andĀ I was feeling that. YouĀ need that extra cushion.Ā
You canĀ 3DĀ printĀ it. We open–source the whole thing. You can tune it. All ofĀ those options, you can tune inĀ to fit how you want to wear it. Because at the end of the day, you’re the only one who knows if it’s comfortable or not.Ā
Have you had to reinvent the whole manufacturing and delivery process then on top of it all?Ā Ā
Yes, absolutely.Ā
It's relatively easy to scale if you've got a great product and a great market message. Click To TweetYou haveĀ taken on a gigantic challenge. You reinvented everything along the way here and took onĀ an entrenched industry. You’ve worked for some of the companies so you know what it’s like;Ā Puma,Ā New BalanceĀ andĀ Nike. It’s full of big brand names. TheĀ kidsāĀ market is very cheap and disjointed.Ā That’s the thing that I think aboutĀ when I think about that. YourĀ kids are growing, their feet are growingĀ fast. YouĀ wonder whetherĀ or not you should spend any money on shoes at all. They want to look cool.Ā My daughter had her first day of schoolĀ and had to have new shoes for that.Ā There is that part of it.Ā You had to reinvent everything.Ā How was it going for you?Ā
It’s going fantastic.Ā At this point, we’ve shippedĀ millions of units. Above all else,Ā whatĀ we’re lookingĀ atĀ asĀ aĀ sign of our success is a communityĀ that is active, engaged and passionate about what we’re doing.Ā Both fromĀ the brand side, they get it. The world needs more play and we talked about that all the time.Ā That is resonating withĀ people. Also as a company,Ā itāsĀ the wayĀ weĀ try to be transparent and work directly with ourĀ audience to try and createĀ the brand together.Ā Seeing their passion after what we’re doing is the most rewarding of all.Ā
We’re in a time whereĀ thereĀ areĀ realĀ shake–upsĀ and challengesĀ for some of these established brands. That’s tough because thereĀ areĀ much technology andĀ much change that a lot of people,Ā legacy brands with a lot of investment inĀ real estate and some of those types of investments.Ā It’s no secretĀ that’s a real struggle.Ā The flip side,Ā for those of us brands starting with a clean slate, when you’re starting withĀ a digitally native platform right from the beginning, it’sĀ a super exciting time. The time to market isĀ much faster, the ability to experiment,Ā try things and use data. ItĀ requires a lot.Ā
To your point, beforeĀ itĀ requires a rethinkingĀ ofĀ howĀ the supply chain works, but also how youĀ go to market and marketing.Ā The opportunity is amazing to be able to create something clean and this whole new platform.Ā We look at it aĀ little less of the challenge ofĀ the other guys and a little more about this blank canvas is a whole new type of business model. We get to be at the forefront of helping to create that.Ā That’s exciting.Ā
You’re at a place of giant opportunity because brand loyalty has fallen off in a strong way with thisĀ Millennial generation and beyond. We don’t see thatĀ level ofĀ committed loyalty to whatever theĀ brand is.Ā There is some amount of newness that everybody wants to tryĀ and there becomes a new loyalty. It’s a raving fan loyalty that you earn that makes you fabulous. I looked at the numbersĀ in my business and it’s 82% referrals. I have 250 shows on my podcast platform and 82% of them came from referrals. That’s whatĀ isĀ happening tooĀ with you guys,Ā is that you developed this online–only,Ā to begin with this direct to consumer and moving into that you earned their loyalty. That in and of itself is a different way to brand build it.Ā
Although I would say that in some ways it’s rooted in the most traditional way, which is word of mouth. The way that wordĀ travels is a little bit different.Ā
WeĀ lost that somewhere in the middle.Ā Probably when we were younger, somewhere around there it started to fall off because we didn’t have local stores as much anymore. They were now chains.Ā I always think about that. I always thought it was such a shame when I saw merchandising shifts from being regional to being national for sure.Ā That’s when to myĀ brick and mortar mass–market fell apart.Ā That’s when I saw the decline starting to happen there. WhatĀ you are doing though is interesting. You’ve been in businesses. IĀ interviewed the founder ofĀ UGGĀ boots.Ā I noticed that you broughtĀ UGG from $250 million toĀ $1Ā billion in five years.Ā
This is something that most brands are struggling with as well.Ā Itās that scaling side of it. I am of the opinion that it’s relatively easy if you’ve got a great productĀ and a great market messageĀ and your product–market fit is there. It’s fairly easy to get to $1 million in sales. From thatĀ $1Ā million toĀ $10 million, it’sĀ excruciatinglyĀ hard because you’ve got to put systems in place, but fromĀ $10 million and beyondĀ andĀ getting aboveĀ $300 million is incredibly difficult. What have you seen from the things that you’ve done, Ryan and Jonathan that has helped companies grow in those stages of scaling?Ā
You have to have a resonance beyond being a product, a commodity. That’s fundamentalĀ to haveĀ the permissionĀ to grow to that level. You have toĀ have aĀ great product and great designĀ that answers the needs of the consumer group.Ā

Scaling In Branded Communities: If you want something to scale, you need to have an element of newness, uniqueness, and excitement but still feels approachable.
In your example, did you go from kids to adults because they wanted it?Ā
ItĀ sounds funny to say, but I can’t tell you how many angry emailsĀ they made.Ā Somebody had commentedĀ andĀ said,Ā “WhatĀ is soĀ hard about making the shoes bigger?ā Unfortunately,Ā that’s not the reality because historicallyĀ it had been the case in the industryĀ where the inverse was true where you would take an adult shoeĀ and shrink it,Ā pink itĀ and make a miniature for kids.Ā It turns out that’s the worst thingĀ to do for kidsāĀ developing feet. From the kids’ business, we redesigned the whole platform and construction for kids specifically. The idea of doing the inverse also didn’t make any sense.Ā
It was like starting all over again.Ā It sounded simpleĀ on the other sideĀ or toĀ us novicesĀ going,Ā “Just growĀ theĀ size.“Ā Luckily for me, I have small feet so I probably would’ve fitĀ in your largest kid’s size.Ā I probably would have been okay.Ā It wouldn’t have fit meĀ right.Ā It wouldn’t have been the right shoe for me.Ā It’sĀ interesting thatĀ you had that challenge, but they were demanding it. TheyĀ were wanting you to scale and that’s a sign of a goodĀ brand.Ā Itās aĀ brand we want to do more business with.Ā
The other part of itĀ that I’ll say, if there’s been a secretĀ sauce to my success, notĀ justĀ atĀ PLAE but in past lives,Ā isĀ it‘s finding balance in the product that you’re creating.Ā By that,Ā you need to bring something new, something innovative, something perhaps a little challenging to the consumer but also have it beĀ familiar in some way. If you do something that’s new,Ā out there and extreme, you’re going to get a lot ofĀ early adopters and people willing to experiment with something. That’s great. ThatĀ can grab a lot of attention.Ā If you want something to scale, youĀ need to have an element of newness,Ā uniqueness and excitement, but feel approachable, uncomfortable with something we already know. It’s finding that balance either beĀ aesthetically or color–wise. ThereĀ areĀ lots of ways toĀ strike that balanceĀ but that balance is what’s critical.Ā
Jonathan, what about you? You’ve worked with a lot of startups.Ā What have you seenĀ helps them go throughĀ those pain stages of scaling?Ā
ThereĀ areĀ a few things.Ā First of all,Ā for aĀ consumer company,Ā in particular,Ā the company has to stand for something.Ā AĀ company that stands forĀ play,Ā that comes across in so many ways and the way we talk and the way we communicate and who we are.Ā That’sĀ job number one. It’sĀ the product. IĀ agree with everythingĀ RyanĀ said.Ā He’s designed on purpose. The next piece is approaching product designĀ in aĀ deliberate way whereĀ products exist for a reason and to solve specific problems, notĀ justĀ to create a buck. Some examples whereĀ RyanĀ has aĀ brilliant job of that forĀ PLAE.Ā For example, earlier this year,Ā we launched ourĀ PackableĀ collection. It‘s a line ofĀ super functional, super sleek,Ā super versatile sneakersĀ andĀ ballet flatsĀ for women and even slippers, but they’re designed to compress down to fit well in your suitcaseĀ or in your purse or your glove box.Ā WeĀ all have the challenge now of we’re traveling. We’re on the road. We’re living out of carry–ons or even heading into the office and youĀ wantĀ an extra pair of shoes. You don’t want to have to bring something bulky.Ā
IĀ did that.Ā ItāsĀ alsoĀ because everything’s weight–restricted now.Ā We also want those them to be lightweight, smallĀ andĀ thin. You guys got all going on there. That’sĀ smart. You’re tapping into the lifestyle.Ā
ByĀ understandingĀ the lifestyle and creating a product thatĀ fits that andĀ this packĀ was such aĀ good example becauseĀ it’s a great–looking sneaker. ByĀ the way,Ā it happens to compress down and it chips in a bag instead of a box. You can squeeze the air out. It’s tiny. It goes anywhere with you.Ā Itās thoseĀ thoughtfulĀ designĀ solutions toĀ challengesĀ people didn’t even realize they had.Ā You wereĀ in San Francisco. YouĀ realize thatĀ having lace–up shoes canĀ be a challenge. Your shoe comes undone. It’s dragging and GodĀ knows what. HavingĀ ourĀ laceless solutions,Ā our StaelaceĀ and other kinds of solutions to avoid needing the lace.Ā Those are thoughtful solutions againĀ that builds that much moreĀ reasonĀ toĀ try and enjoy a product.Ā
To grow to a certain level, you have to have a great product and great design that answers the needs of the consumers. Click To TweetI’mĀ glad you’re saying that because what you’re doing is reinforcing something I say on the show pretty frequently. Part of what I believe is that there are models to follow to scale your supply chains, to scale your distributions, to scale all of those things.Ā AĀ smart product strategy that’s super sensitive to your brand and to the audience that you’ve built, that is a better scaling option than the typical, which is,Ā “If weĀ throw more products,Ā we’ll be fine.” That’s what most brands do when they try to get to that next stage. They’re like,Ā “Throw more stuff in,Ā people will buy it because they like us.” That’s not true because if they’re not thoughtful as you’re putting itĀ if they’re not well designed if they still don’t have that brand integrity, it won’t work.Ā
When you start a business orĀ an initial product or idea from the beginning, it’s easy to stop and think about what’s the reason for beingĀ when you start from nothing.Ā As you grow,Ā it becomes easyĀ to get distracted and lose sight of that question. That question is importantĀ every time you make something new.Ā
OneĀ of those people who would go in,Ā I would call it the hatchet girlĀ who cut people’s lines tremendouslyĀ and not because theyĀ weren’t selling. They would get all upsetĀ like,Ā āSomebodyĀ isĀ buying this.āĀ You’re like,Ā “No, they have to go.Ā If you want to get to that next stage, if you want to get toĀ $300 million, you better start cutting these products because they’re not working for your strategy. They’re not working for your brand anymore.” That’s a hard thing for someone to do after the fact.Ā It’s a lot easier to start with it and try to maintain that integrity,Ā keep to the brand and keep to your audience what they’re telling youĀ and listening to them.Ā You’ve built in a system that requires you to listen.Ā
We hear things fast. ToĀ Ryan’s pointing, including the occasional,Ā “Why won’t you makeĀ this?” with a lot of heat. IĀ was reflecting. I heard you inĀ one of your previous podcasts. You’re talking aboutĀ aĀ great productĀ andĀ wouldn’t it be niceĀ if aĀ great product always wins.Ā It’s super importantĀ toĀ have aĀ product that solves a problem, butĀ it’s one piece of the puzzle. The full set is toĀ have a brand with real purpose that has a reason to beĀ and aĀ product that solves solutions andĀ isĀ great.Ā You have to do a great job of theseĀ new dimensionsĀ that consumers are considering when they’re considering what brands to trust these days.Ā We’re at a time of change when consumers are trying new things.Ā In some ways,Ā loyalty ultimately is going to be a function of execution and how well you do. It’s solvingĀ basic things butĀ important things like shipping on time,Ā free shipping, doing a great job of returns and exchanges.Ā
That was also what wasĀ occurring to me when you were talking about yourĀ PackablesĀ being so much lighter weight.Ā You’re also helping the environment in that process because the more costs, the more space that it takes up, the more shipping. We’re wasting fuel. You’re doing a bunch of things that are behind the scenes saving money internally for the cost of what you’re shipping, but also doing some real goodĀ to the rest of the world for all of us here.Ā You’re solving bigger problems that maybe your customers don’t even know about.Ā
It’s absolutely deliberate because a lot of the costsĀ of a productĀ from the standpoint of the environment, the eco-costsĀ comes down to how the product gets to you. It’s the type of factory it’s made inĀ and what energy they use all the way toĀ the size of the product.Ā By doing something in a compression bag, we’re able to make a product that ships across the oceanĀ smaller.Ā Unfortunately,Ā everything that ships across the ocean right now is going to consume some fossil fuels. We can do our part to make that better by shipping smaller packages.Ā That was deliberate on our part.Ā
I would add toĀ that,Ā the other part that gets lostĀ in the conversations around ecological impact is the importanceĀ of not making things.Ā I don’t careĀ what the laundry list looks likeĀ in terms ofĀ how recycled or eco–friendly the materials are or the sourcing and everything. At the end of the day, if you make something, you’re making an impact byĀ nature of it.Ā The greatest thing that you can do isĀ toĀ create something that lasts aĀ long time. It doesn’t have to beĀ replaced. That’s one of the big focuses we’ve had from the beginning is making something durable that can be handed downĀ and resold.Ā One of the things that I’m certainly theĀ proudestĀ of isĀ if you look at ourĀ kids business, which has been around forĀ a few years now, we have an incredibly robustĀ resell market. ItĀ speaks to thatĀ impact.Ā
I can tell you,Ā multiple daughters go through oneĀ shoe. We go through a lot here. If they make it to the second one, I’m shocked.Ā It is something that I’ve always looked at. Early on in my design career,Ā I was lucky enough to work with Herman Miller. It was rightĀ inĀ the early stages of them. I worked with himĀ with the Aeron chair. I’m still sitting on one thatĀ I originally bought when they came out.Ā I’mĀ still sitting in that. It’s many years later. Thinking about that though, thatĀ durabilityĀ is somethingĀ andĀ not even thinking about cradle to grave, as important as that sounds, it’s hard to deal with.Ā

Scaling In Branded Communities: There are a lot of moving parts in any new venture. It’s important to know what pieces you can do and where you need help.
You can get into this design cycle of not being able to solve it. It frustrates you. You don’t do anything and that’s not making progress in the world either. I always loved the approach that they pioneered. ManyĀ years ago,Ā Herman Miller when they started theirĀ EcoĀ Council, which was,Ā “I don’t care what we have to do, as long as weĀ take steps every single week, every singleĀ day, everyĀ single new product that wasĀ going out, we’re doing something more improved over the last time because we’re going to get there.Ā We’re going to get to where it needs to be or where it can be at this pointĀ its greatest potentialĀ forĀ improvement.āĀ That’s something that we all have to do. It has a huge cost implication.Ā In your world of competitiveness on theseĀ low–cost shoes that you’re competing against,Ā there areĀ some almost unbelievable pricing down there.Ā
I have walked into Walmart. We can’t buy these shoes because this is like stealing.Ā WeĀ stole somebody’s labor to make these. There’s nothing left in the cost of these.Ā I have enough knowledge. Most people don’t. You’re competing againstĀ that. If you can make efficiencies elsewhere and keep your costs on par with where you are in the marketplace, that’s fantastic because now you’re creating a much more sustainable and viable business, notĀ justĀ sustainable for the world, which is good too.Ā What’s next for you? Where are you going next?Ā Are you expandingĀ products? Are you going toĀ do more?Ā
I was going to speak more from a product,Ā theĀ next steps and where the brandĀ is going standpoint. The Nordstrom part,Ā I‘ll let Jonathan answer that.Ā From a product perspective,Ā that’s to be determined by the community. AsĀ I said earlier, a lot of what we’reĀ doingĀ is more about listening to feedback and what people are looking for, what’s missing, where thereĀ areĀ opportunities.Ā AĀ lot of times,Ā the opportunities lie in between the words. It’s paying close attention and listening carefully to how people are using products and not ours but others andĀ where thereĀ areĀ opportunities to make improvements or new solutions.Ā
Jonathan, what aboutĀ theĀ expansion of distribution and other things like that?Ā
What drives us is, as you can hear, from all of our conversationsĀ is the community and being close to our community and our customer.Ā That’s whereĀ 90% of our focus goes.Ā We’re delighted byĀ the partnership with NordstromĀ on the kids’ side.Ā Many parents want to go and get their kidsĀ measured in person.Ā That’s been a phenomenal relationship. We respect Nordstrom tremendously. As it relates toĀ building our business, especially on the adult side,Ā we’re super excited about our directĀ consumer model and growing ourĀ online business.Ā It feels like we’re still at theĀ beginning of what we can do there. It’s full–speed ahead to keepĀ gettingĀ aĀ great product, keep finding new ways toĀ tell the storyĀ and keep engagingĀ with folks to learn from them aboutĀ how to do a better job for them.Ā
Do you guys have any advice for those that are considering upending the business models in theirĀ industry or the product models? Do you have any advice for them?Ā
OneĀ thing I would say isĀ it’s importantĀ to work backward through the process.Ā It’s common to say,Ā “I’m going to start a business and I want toĀ make somethingĀ or do something.” If you go the other way around and look at it through the consumer eye, which is this idea ofĀ design thinkingĀ and look at what does it, whatĀ isĀ a need, what is a want andĀ work backward to building a business toward that,Ā you have the opportunity to disrupt an entire industry.Ā
Many product–focused companies that we see,Ā many product–focusedĀ brands, it’s all about the product and it’s not about the need in the marketplace. If you’ve listened to any of my podcasts,Ā I’ve probably said product–market fit and every single one of them.Ā ItĀ always comes up somewhere and for me,Ā when you have market first fit, that’s an easier way to do design. I don’t know about you,Ā but I find itĀ that if I understand what the market’s looking for, IĀ can designĀ anything because now everything’s on the table. When you go the other way, you’ve got to hope it fits.Ā I don’tĀ believe in hope.Ā
My advice is it’s about the people because thereĀ are a lot of moving parts inĀ any new venture, in any new product, in any new product launch.Ā It’sĀ important to knowĀ what pieces you can do and where you need help, where you needĀ complimentary parts.Ā The most fun since launchingĀ PLAEĀ with Ryan isĀ the wayĀ weĀ worked well together, but we don’t both do completely different things. Ryan is so amazing at design,Ā brand and talking to customers, everything else.Ā WeĀ need that. We need a lot of our creative activity to go into a bunch of those things.Ā WeĀ also need to solve some of the basic steps.Ā I can help with the boring stuff whileĀ he does all the cool creative stuff.Ā
Loyalty ultimately is going to be a function of execution. Click To TweetThis was something I did want to mention,Ā soĀ I’m glad you’re saying that asĀ a part of your secret sauce that you guys got going on there. You’ve got a great team because you’re balancing out your priorities well betweenĀ a dual focus on operations, systems, growthĀ and the product as well. When you have them at that top level and often you don’t, it’s very imbalanced. It’s a sales–driven organization or it’sĀ a design–driven organization. There’s not a lot of in–between. You have made it,Ā so it balances.Ā YouĀ have hit on such a great partnership so congratulations on that.Ā
Thanks.Ā It comes down to mutual respect.Ā
You need each other to be successful.Ā I want to thank youĀ much for being on and sharingĀ much with us. There’s so much to learn here and I’m going to make sure everybody has links forĀ PLAE.Ā Ryan and Jonathan, thank you for being on the show.Ā IĀ appreciate your time.Ā
It was a pleasure. Thank you,Ā Tracy.Ā
Everyone, I’ll be back next time. Maybe I’ll bring you a cool interesting company andĀ brand to talk toĀ or maybeĀ we’llĀ bring you some hard nitty–gritty advice.Ā You never knowĀ what’s coming up next. You’llĀ have to keepĀ reading. Thank you for reading.
Tune in to Ryan Ringholz and Jonathan Spier’s next Office Hours. Connect with and find out more about Natasha and Fred Ruckel in our Experts Directory.
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About Ryan Ringholz
Ryan is an internationally-recognized brand expert and designer. As lead designer at Puma, he launched the $1B+ lifestyle division.
He then went to Diesel, growing footwear to over $300M, and subsequently UGG, where he created the strategic plan that grew the business from $250M to $1B in 5 years. He has launched his own menās footwear line and consulted for dozens of the worldās best brands.
Jonathan Spier
Jonathan is a 15-year start-up veteran. most recently, he was co-founder and CEO of NetBase, a leading provider of social media marketing solutions to blue-chip customers like Coca-Cola, JD Power, and SAP.
Jonathan is an alumnus of HBS and, prior to joining PLAE, served as an EIR at Altos Ventures, where he mentored and advised numerous CEOs.